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Minute #5
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Brian Therrien:
This is Brain Therrien here today with John Tholen.
John, how are you today? John Tholen: I’m doing well today,
thank you Brian. Brian Therrien: Great, great.
Appreciate you coming on out and telling us about your work.
It’s, you know, for the audience this is a chance for them to get
some real insights into, as you say, about How to Win the Disability
Challenge, which is a book that you’ve written, so.
You know, before we get into it and going through the book I, just, I
think that you have communicated some real valuable life tips and skills to
people that are no longer able to do what they used to do for work in a way
that I haven’t seen anybody else do it so I’m, frankly, excited to share
your story and tell people about your work that you’ve done so job well
done, in advance. The first thing
that I wanted to point out that really resonated with me is – really the
position of the whole book that you speak to people, John, that for some
reason or another, have had an occupational situation happen to them where
they’re no longer able to do what they have done and they’ve worked so
hard all their life and their work has become their identity and it’s become
their income and the support for their house, in a lot of cases, and they just
can’t do it anymore and it’s just a very difficult thing and, yet, some of
these principles that you’ve communicated to people are really, I think,
leave them with the belief, after they understand your work, that there is a
lot that people can do. John Tholen:
Well, that’s certainly the goal.
One of the hardest challenges for me is to get a foot in the door with
people who are feeling completely hopeless -- Brian Therrien: Umm. John Tholen: -- and lost sight of the
fact that there may be a way of making their life successful after they’ve
become disabled. Brian Therrien: Hmm.
So, when you go about doing your work, I mean, you’ve been in this
business of working and as a clinical psychologist and maybe if, from the work
that I’ve understand that you’ve done, kind of like a coach to people that
are disabled. You’ve been doing
this for 29 years as a traditional practice.
So, this is kind if a collection of your greatest hits and what’s
worked and what’s been the most receptive to people or can you tell us, kind
of like, how you came about putting this, you know, putting this effort
together? John Tholen: That’s exactly what
you’re suggesting. I – over
the course of 27 years I worked before I wrote the book, I would often write
notes to my patients to take home with them, you know, to challenge their
rational, discouraging thoughts and I would always keep a copy.
So, I collected a big file of all the notes that I wrote down for my
patients and that became the backbone of the book. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm. John Tholen: Putting all those notes
together. Brian Therrien: So, if I look at going back
and really doing the Reader’s Digest condensed version of your work and what
you’ve communicated in the book, I see some glaring areas I’d like to
touch on today, which is the tips – tips on how fulfilling life experiences
can be achieved after you can become disabled or as I’ve, you know,
expressed to people is you’re going to play the hand that you’ve been
dealt. That’s one area I’d
certainly like learn more about. And
there’s a lot of work about affirmations, which is really unique.
I can see where that would be helpful for somebody to have consistent,
positive affirmations to remind themselves of who they are and what they can
do and, you know, what their capabilities are so there’s confidence in one,
so that’s great. The other area
that I saw that I’d also like to dig into today is you have some really,
simple, manageable methods for helping people improve their health, manage
pain, and even cure insomnia and coping with depressive-type symptoms, so, I
mean, this is really some valuable stuff.
So, those are the areas that I’d like to talk with you about today if
that’s okay with you? John Tholen: Great. Brian Therrien: Good. So, let’s start from the top. Tips on fulfilling life experiences. How they can be achieved after becoming disabled and I think the most fascinating thing that I found in your work, John, that you did was, well, I liken it to a pie chart, you know, what you were able to do before and then what you’re able to do afterwards, but, I’ll lead you in that direction and a few things, if you could, maybe one or two key points that you could share with the audience on that subject.
John Tholen: Sure.
Well, it’s just natural that when we have a major loss in our lives,
we become preoccupied with it. You
know, when you lose something that’s always been there – it’s like you
have a tooth fall out your tongue just can’t stay away from that spot.
Your attention is drawn to it over and over again and it causes you to
lose sight of the fact that there are other things – other possibilities –
we become fix on that – on what’s been lost, and we lose sight of the fact
that there remains an infinite number of great possibilities for us in life.
And that’s that’s part of my biggest challenge in seeing patients
for the first time is to tell them – they tell me, there’s nothing left I
can do. Well let’s start listing
all the things you can do, you know, and pretty soon it becomes clear that
we’re – we’re never going to run out of the – the list is going to go
on forever because it’s still an incredible number of things that a person
can do even after they become disabled in a major way. Brian Therrien: And this holds true for
those with pretty much any sort of disability, from a physical ailment to an
auto-immune condition to MS? John Tholen: Yeah.
Well, as long as you can – as long as you can think and you can speak
and, well, I guess, probably even if you couldn’t speak, there would still
be a million things you could do. But,
as long as you’re rational, there are things you’re going to be able to
do, and the only limit on the number of things are creativity, our ability to
go out there and look for them, you know, because there are a million things
you can do that are just – have to do with learning, educating ourselves,
exploring new aspects of life we haven’t looked into before, becoming more
philosophical or more spiritual. These
things don’t come to an end. You
know – one thing that, you know, all of us, if we live long enough, are
going to become disabled. The
advantage we have there is the hat comes on gradually and we can adjust to it
a little more easily. When it
happens all at once, it becomes an overwhelming challenge, but the truth is
that we can learn how to adjust to that in the same way that we would if it
happen – came on gradually. We
adjust our lifestyle, we find new ways of doing things, we get involved in
things that are of interest to us, that are rewarding to us, and we become
wiser. The stereotype about the
older person that we want to be wiser when we get older.
Well, that’s something we can – that can happen for us after we
become disabled. Brian Therrien: You know, it’s interesting
that you – that you say that. I’ve
always been the bully for people that, you know, are going through the process
or contemplating it and we coach them through it.
Here at the Disability Digest is that one, you know, once you have come
to grips with the fact that you’re going to apply for disability or you’re
approved, you have an abundance of time. The whole commitment of the 40-hour
work week that most of, you know, we’re reluctant to lose is now gone and in
your work, you you speak to that as, I guess, an advantage, right? John Tholen: Yeah.
Like people – people usually don’t look upon being disabled as
having advantages. Brian Therrien: ~Laughs~. John Tholen: But, the truth is that there
are some. We get to kind of
re-examine our our priorities. Re-examine
what we’re doing because when when you’re working, it takes up so much of
your time. I mean, not just the
time you’re at work, but the time you’re preparing for – to get to work,
the time that you’re, you know, transporting yourself back and forth to
work, that that we often don’t even think about making major changes.
We don’t – you know, this may not be our ideal life, but then you
become disabled and suddenly you’ve lost something that you’ve been
pivoting your life around and it seems like a major crisis, but the truth is
this may be an opportunity to start putting your life, build – rebuilding
your life in a way that’s going to be more rewarding, more satisfying, more
fulfilling than it was before. Brian Therrien: Um,
yeah. You know a lot of it focuses
around work and that, you know, work being the identity to people and what
they do and, you know, and what they’re known for.
So, was that – this is my take, is once somebody has comes to grips
with that and they’ve been able to deal with that as well as they’re able
to take care of their basic needs, you know, the shelter and the food and all
that, then they’re – then they’re really in a position where they can,
you know, use that time effectively. Do
you feel the same way? I mean, if
they don’t have – if somebody doesn’t know whether they’re going to be
able to live or how they’re going to eat, that’s a real concern.
Is it difficult for those in those situations?
For people to adjust to this mentality or? John Tholen: Oh, certainly.
I mean, obviously, we have to get our basic needs met before we can
begin to think about, you know, how we’re going to entertain ourselves, how
we’re going to educate ourselves. You
know, yeah, then, you know, then that’s one of the – I put – near the
beginning of the book I have a chapter called Taking Care of Business and
that’s, you know, designed to help people get moving in the direction of
meeting those basic needs. Brian Therrien: Great, great.
So, your focus and your success has been as directing people to really
change their mindset and to focus on some of the things that they can do.
What are the top things that you usually outline that that people can
do in these situations?
John Tholen: Well, one of the things that
I talk about with with my patients a great deal is this idea of improving
ourselves. You know, finding some
class or taking some kind of lesson or going to listen to some lecturer and
just adding to our – the information that we – that we’re getting
exposed to. Making ourselves feel
like we’re progressing, moving ahead, expanding ourselves.
Now, these are things that are difficult for people to do when
they’re – when they’re in the midst of the crisis and they’re morbidly
depressed and anxious. I mean,
that has to be attended to first. So,
in my practice – I actually have a psychiatrist in my practice, because a
lot of the patients that I’m being – I’m seeing have been referred by
their orthopaedic doctors and they come in to see me and they’re in –
they’re in acute depression and they don’t really have the energy and
they’re not, you know, they’re not sleeping, they’re – if you’re not
sleeping more than, you know, at least five hours a night it’s pretty hard
to do anything – and if you don’t have any energy, you know, you can’t
really get started. So, a lot of
the people that I see, we get them to the psychiatrist and they get some
antidepressant medication that helps them to get back some of their energy.
Now, not everybody needs that, but it’s a lot of the patients do. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm. John Tholen: And then they’re able to
start taking on these other challenges of reshaping their lives in a positive
direction. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm.
Now, on to the next thing that I was – wanted to talk to you about is
the affirmations that you have with people.
I mean, there’s affirmations in there that are for – that I found
helpful that, you know, that I could use.
So, how – I guess my first area of, you know, of questions to learn
about this is how do you get people to get locked in on using affirmations?
Specifically, they’ve got to, you know, go over them several times to
instill a confidence and I can when – once they’re there, then it’s a
brilliant way to put their, you know, to set their mind straight.
How do you do that? John Tholen: Well, the book really is
written in a way that I hope people will take bits and pieces of it and use
those to their advantage. Like I
said, these are – these affirmations are things that I wrote for patients
over the years – Brian Therrien: Okay. John Tholen: -- and then collected into
the book. The way – you know
what I find is helpful for people is to go through the affirmations, pick out
the ones that resonate with them, that have some special meaning to them,
write them down on a, you know, a 3x5 card and put in their pocket – Brian Therrien: Um-hmm. John Tholen: -- or put in their wallet
and when you find yourself ruminating about the hopelessness of your
situation, you know, pull the card out and review it, because we don’t
really have a great deal of control over the thought that comes into our mind.
But, if we – and one of the few ways that we can actually replace a
self defeating thought is by preparing an alternative and then kind of
constantly reviewing it over and over and, eventually, we can start maybe
thinking that way. Brian Therrien: Um.
In fact, there’s one here, number twenty-three, that is – it say
becoming occupationally disabled may be the first difficult step in our path
towards personal growth and maturity, which, for anybody that’s going
through the beginning of the process to have that, you know, tucked away in
their pocket. There’s a little
bit more to it than that and to pull it out in those times of doubt and
concern is a great message. John Tholen: Yeah.
If they, you know, oftentimes people are not ready to, you know, they
just find that ridiculous in that idea, because they’re so down in the
bottom of the crisis that there are – that there are – so they – so some
other affirmation might be more appropriate to that person.
So, it really depends on your particular mindset, which things are
going to be most meaningful to you. Brian Therrien: Yeah. John Tholen: That’s why – that’s
why there’s 75 of them in there. Brian Therrien: Um.
And one of my favorites is – it says here our experiences are based
more on how we react to those events than the events themselves, which is
tried and true for anybody in life. A
lot of people overreact. Really,
really good stuff. John Tholen: Well, I – I, you know,
oftentimes if I get the patients to try to identify some person they think of
as a – as a personal model, you know, as a – as a hero or an ideal.
You know, for myself, I – the person I usually think of is Ghandi. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm. John Tholen: How would – how would
Ghandi respond to the situation? You
know, that’s – there – that sets a high standard for you.
You know, it’s impossible to think of him, you know, becoming
hopeless because he became crippled. You
know, that wouldn’t happen for him. He
would – he would continue to be the same person doing the same things that,
you know, he was capable of doing because of his – his mindset. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm. John Tholen: And, you know, none of us
– it’s not that we can be like that because, you know, Ghandi – there is
these exceptional people that it comes natural to, but we can make ourselves
more like that. We can become –
we can learn to be more like those individuals. Brian Therrien: Um.
You know, I’m wondering, you know, with the work that you’ve had
and the impact that it’s had on people about, you know, how it really
teaches those that are disabled to really become liberated – how they’re
liberated from their routine and they understand that and they focus on
something else. Are there any
stories or patient stories in your mind? Success
stories that you can – that you can think of? John Tholen: I had one patient’s story
that was kind of an inspiration to me. It
was a guy that had been assaulted in the course of his work and had some
serious neck and back injuries and he was limited to a fixed disability income
of about $900 a month, but he managed to make that work.
He managed to find some public assisted housing, he got some services
through the state, and then he set about – he would go to community food
banks that would keep his expenses – keep his – to survive within his
means, and then he set about building a model railroad, which is something he
wanted to do since he was a kid. And
he carved pieces – for the model, he carved people and trees and houses and
he created this elaborate model railroad in his apartment that he used to play
with all day long and then he got a pet cockatiel and he taught the cockatiel
to make humorous quips, at his prompting, to entertain other people and then
he woo’d and wed his housekeeper and, so, this was a guy who – who’s
life clearly did not come to an end with his disability. Brian Therrien: That sounds great.
Wow. Yeah, you know, I say
this often that I have met in my – in my work in this area some of the most
inspirational people that have fought through some incredible challenges like
this gentleman. That’s a great
story. John Tholen: Well, you know, the truth is
that people who overcome disability become better people.
They become more admirable people.
I mean, you think about somebody like Christopher Reeve.
Here was a fellow who, you know, a talented guy, and incredibly good
looking guy, a movie star, but that’s all he was until he suffered a
severely disabling injury and then he became an inspiration for the whole
world. Brian Therrien: Umm. John Tholen: He became something –
something much greater than that. Brian Therrien: Yeah.
All the way up to the end. John Tholen: Yeah. Brian Therrien: Yeah,
it was really – it was cool. You
mentioned, in the story, that your patient wed his housekeeper, which, you
know, brings the relationship, you know, part of your work into this and the
– I don’t know what the statistics are for people that go through the
disability process and the life changes as far as those that remain married
and those that get divorced, but it just – my take is the number of people
that are disabled that are divorced is certainly skewed.
It’s very very high. John Tholen: Whenever you go through a
major life changing event, it’s likely to upset a marriage.
You know, I mean, you’re just – going to graduate school leads to
more than 50 percent divorced. Brian Therrien: Oh, really? John Tholen: Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and any time you do something that changes your you know,
what you’re doing in a big way, it has a potential for upsetting a
relationship and, you know, when we get married most of us don’t really, you
know, know what we’re doing, you know, to the large extent.
I mean, you know – we usually get to know our spouses better after
the marriage than we knew them before. Brian Therrien: Yeah. John Tholen: So – and then you become
disabled and you – and you may learn a whole new side of your spouse that
you never knew about before. Either
that they’re incredibly compassionate and loving and helpful or that they
can’t deal with anybody who’s having a problem. Brian Therrien: Yeah. John Tholen: Because there are some
people like that who can’t be compassionate.
They just get angry with people who are having problems. Brian Therrien: Um.
That’s well said. You
know we try, most of us, to do our best and prepare for life, but we’re not
taught how to, for the most part, have a successful relationship or manage
money or raise kids, you know, so. John Tholen: And those topics are so
controversial that I’m not sure you could come up with an acceptable
curriculum. Brian Therrien: Well, yeah, good point.
Good point. So, maybe
it’s better left and just, you know, figure it out. John Tholen: I think that we all are on
our own when it comes to those things. Brian Therrien: Laughs. John Tholen: It’s like – it’s like
figuring out what to believe about the the universe, you know – Brian Therrien: Umm. John Tholen: -- it’s an individual
challenge. Brian Therrien: So, what, you know – any
one or two strategies that you could advocate to the audience that, you know,
if they’re becoming disabled, maybe their relationship’s in good shape.
I know there’s so many variables here.
Maybe it’s not in good shape. Anything
that you could share in the time that we have that would be helpful for folks? John Tholen: Well, it depends on – if
you’re still on good terms. If
you’re still able to speak to each other without animosity, then the goal is
to put your cards on the table in a way that’s not aggressive, that’s not
insulting or attacking the other person. You
know, this is – this is an assertive approach that’s usually the best way
to work things out in any kind of communication between people.
What happens so often, though, is that people get into these counter
punching matches where one person will say something with a – with a
aggressive slant to it and the other person will fire back some jive to
counter that and pretty – pretty soon you’re just in a fight.
Not really getting anywhere. And
in those kinds of situations, it often takes the intervention of a counsellor,
a therapist, a clergy person, or someone – someone that knows, you know, how
to intervene and try to control that. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm, um-hmm. John Tholen: One one thing that I
recommend to people who are having trouble with that is to start communicating
in writing or by e-mail, you know, where you – where you actually sit down
and write something and then edit your response to try to make it as, you
know, as unaggressive as possible. Brian Therrien: So it’s – John Tholen: Because we don’t do that
when we’re talking. You know,
when we’re talking, something can slip out there or it’s just the tone of
our voice can become aggressive. Brian Therrien: Good point.
Do – you give some nice examples of assertive statements for people
that become disabled. The one that
stands out is something relative to, you know, I’m not able to do that
anymore, which makes perfect sense when somebody experiences limitations in
their body and there’s tasks that they used to be able to do and they’re
no longer able to do them. Just
makes plain old sense to communicate that.
That’s – so – it was a lot cleaner than I expressed it in the
book, but I thought it was a great point. John Tholen: Oh,
thank you. Yeah, the, you know,
the whole new – we – when we become disabled, we entered a new world in
some – in some ways, you know, you start having to deal with doctors and
lawyers and insurance companies and Social Security representatives and, you
know, it’s – we’re not familiar with that sometimes it’s kind of
intimidating. People have trouble,
you know, and you become disabled, you become uncertain of yourself and it
becomes hard to be consistently assertive and ask for what you want and
express your feelings. So, a lot
of the statements in there are designed to help people in those situations. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm, um-hmm.
And they’re short and sweet and easy.
Kind of liking it to, you know, putting it in kind of like how you need
to treat affirmations. You need to
be aware of them, have them there, be prepared when to use them, when not to
use them. So, lots of nice
examples there. John Tholen: The one – the one that I
think is helpful to a lot of people is just this idea that of delaying a
response. Asking for time before
you make your response. Brian Therrien: Um-hmm. John Tholen: One you feel pressured to
give a response right on the spot. So,
in that situation, it’s almost always best to say something like, you know I
need to think about that for a moment or let me sleep on that, you know, so
you don’t – you don’t – you’re not responding out of some emotional
state. You’re going to –
you’re going to get your – engage your rational thought processes and then
come up with a better response. Brian Therrien: Umm. Yeah, that’s good, again, good, sound advice. Looking at, you know, the audiences that are out there most end up in these situations because they’re experiencing pain. They’ve, obviously, had some type of, you know, change in their life and they’re in search of, you know, a way to get their life back, manage pain, feel better, you know, sleep better, whatever it is. And you give some really good strategies of how to, you know – really how to – how to deal with that. The things that you can do that are in your – in your control and they’re all, you know, I don’t want to say holistic, but practical things that are not medication. So, can you outline, you know, some of the top things that you would, you know, that you would advise people to do to – that are in search of getting their health back?
John Tholen: Well, you know, it’s a
combination of looking at what possibilities you can try out on your own and,
you know, creating a list. I’m
all for people making lists of possibilities.
Things you might want to explore. Every
time you, you know, somebody mentions something to you that seems like it
might have some helpfulness, you know, you put it on your list so you don’t
lose it and you can come to it again another time.
But, also, I think a lot of people get a lot of benefit out of having a
a coach, a pain coach. Somebody
that they can confide in, that helps them to make decisions, to refer them to
the – to the right people. You
know, sometimes that’s a physical therapist, sometimes it’s a pain doctor,
sometimes it’s a therapist – a psychologist.
But, I think people benefit out of having kind of a partner in the –
in the battle. Brian Therrien: So, a pain coach.
Where would somebody find a pain coach? John Tholen: Well, you know, you’re not
going to – there probably aren’t too many people out there that call
themselves pain coaches. But,
it’s going to be, you know, that’s something that the individual – that
the disabled individual’s going to figure out.
Who’s the best person? Who
do I relate to best, who seems to be most concerned about me, who seems to be
available to help me. Brian Therrien: I see. John Tholen: So, you – you know, a lot
of people develop very good relationships with a physical therapist.
Some people have – myself, I have a pain specialist that I go to see
and, you know, I ask his advice on things. Brian Therrien: And for those out there that
are pain coaches, I would suggest that they title themselves pain relief
coaches. I don’t know if
there’s people out there actually looking for pain or more of it [laughs]. John Tholen: I’ll have to write a
different book for those people [laughs]. Brian Therrien: Great stuff.
You know as we – as we wind up today, one of the – one of the
things that really stood out about the work that you do is the biggest
obstacle that people have is really conquering their disability is is getting
started. If you can’t get
started, you can’t get anything done, right? John Tholen: Right. Brian Therrien: It’s like a lot of things.
So, you know, for those of you who are out there listening, if if
John’s work resonates with you and, you know, you want to check it out,
we’ll put a – put a link to where you can go find your book.
You’re book is out at major publishers.
You can get it on Amazon I believe, right? Brian Therrien: So, then go out and check
out – check out your book and learn more about it and that would be great.
So, you know, as far as a call to action or getting started, is there
anything that you could add that would, you know, be helpful for the audience
to understand, you know, what they need to do to take action or take more
action to get their concerns addressed? John Tholen: Well, I think the first step
is to, you know, speak to somebody, you know, if you have a doctor, to speak
to them about the trouble you’re having.
Then that person may be able to help you to identify the next step.
Some people, you know, the people that are extremely depressed are
probably going to benefit from some kind of medical help.
And people that aren’t sleeping, you know, I don’t know how many
times I’ve I’ve seen patients for the first time who were getting, you
know, three – two to three or four hours sleep a night – Brian Therrien: Umm. John Tholen: -- and we helped them get a
a medication that helps them to sleep and they suddenly feel quite a bit
better and then they become more capable of functioning and starting to take,
you know, capable of reading the book because sometimes people aren’t even
capable of doing that when I first see them.
But, after you get beyond that point, then the goal is to start
becoming mindful. Mindfulness is
this concept that came out of a kind of a Buddhist approach, but it’s it’s
really about being aware of what’s going on in our bodies at any one moment.
Because life is really – the quality of our life is really based on
our cumulative moment-to-moment experiences and, so, this developing an
awareness of what’s going on in the here and now, in your body, in your
circumstances is a key factor in moving ahead in conquering the disability
challenge. Brian Therrien: Great, great.
Well, you know, again, I enjoy your work.
I found the book was really easy to read.
Again, for the audience, John’s book is Winning the Disability
Challenge. A practical guide to
successful living. Check it out at
the link. John, thanks for coming
out today and sharing your work and your insight and keep up the great work
and we look forward to having you back. John Tholen: Well, thank you Brian. Brian Therrien: Okay.
Thanks again. Have a great
day. John Tholen: Okay.
You too. Bye-bye.
{end of
the interview} |
