Minute #15
Minute #30
Minute #45
Minute #60
Minute #75
Minute #90

^^^^^^^^^^^
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

To Navigate Transcript

"Transcript - Jonathan Ginsberg - Disability Answers Guide Part One"

Brian Therrien: Okay, Good day this is Brian Therrien here with Jonathan Ginsberg. How are you today Jonathan?

Jonathan Ginsberg: I�m doing just fine thank you.

Brian Therrien: Great. It�s a pleasure to have you with us. We�ve been anxious to have a conversation with you regarding the Social Security Disability benefit topic and there�s a lot of information that people want to know about this topic. We�ve been asked all kinds of stuff and understood that it�s difficult to receive and it takes a long time to get it. The process is very challenging to figure out and dealing with the Social Security office�s are not the easiest thing to do. So, we are anxious to learn from your perspective all about that and who qualifies. What conditions and problems count as valid disabilities? Who decides it? How do you file, on and on and on and on. Let�s get started. You have been working in the Social Security Disability realm for quite some time, since 1997. Is that correct?

Jonathan Ginsberg: I�ve been practicing law for about twenty years and about half that time I�ve been doing Social Security Disability.

Brian Therrien: Yep. So you represent clients seeking to get Social Security Benefits.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Absolutely, I represent clients. I represent adults, children, widows, a whole variety of people. What they all have in common is that they feel that they meet the requirements for disability for Social Security and they want to try to get benefits.

Brian Therrien: Okay. And your clients are mostly where, in the country?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Most of my clients are in Georgia. My office is in Atlanta, although I have travelled as far as Buffalo, New York and Birmingham and various other places. The one thing about Social Security is that because it is a National program, attorneys do not necessarily need to be living or licensed in a particular place to represent people. I find though that one of the advantages for staying local is you get to know the doctors and you get to know the judges, which is probably the most important factor. But, I have represented people is various parts of the country.

Brian Therrien: Interesting. We�ve looked around long and hard to find the resident expert on this and the work that you�ve done in this area has been interesting. I have noted that recently you�ve even taken your message out on a national level and started doing a blog and an internet radio station. So on behalf of everybody that is subject to this topic, thank you for your effort.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, I appreciate that. I have a good time with it and I find that when I answer questions from people all over the country, and I get a lot of questions everyday, it really does help to keep me sharp. It helps me to become a better lawyer and I get information out of there that I think that sometimes people don�t otherwise have access to.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm. So can you share with us how many cases, or different situations have you represented over the years.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I was thinking about that the other day and I think probably, easily over a thousand people. A thousand claimants that I have represented myself or when I had a previous firm before this law firm. But I think all in all it�s probably over a thousand people.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: And of course, I talk to a lot more. Even though I don�t represent a lot of the folks that I answer questions for, I�m constantly answering questions, so again, I wouldn�t say that I represent those people, but I am talking to a lot of people. But I think that people that I have actually done work for in court, is probably close to a thousand. Probably a thousand maybe a little bit over that.

Brian Therrien: Fantastic. What do you see Jonathan, as some of the top challenges that are facing people? You should have a good idea after that many cases.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I think by far the biggest problem that I�ve seen is folks trying to get regular medical treatment from a doctor to build a solid record. Social Security is real focused on getting records from treating physicians, getting reports from treating physicians and with the cost of medical insurance and the cost of trying to get good quality care, that�s a real problem. I think that is probably the biggest issue that I seen, is getting that. Because you have to realize that judges in Social Security cases are monitored by people looking at their work. There�s appellet judges who have the right to look at decisions and if a judge issues a decision that is not properly supported it will be overturned and judges are very concerned about having their decisions and findings overturned. So basically that�s the biggest problem I think. The days that a judge could say I kind of like this person and I am going to go ahead and approve, those days are pretty much over. The second big problem that we see is people that are undergoing a lot of hardship, because of delays the process. As you may know, the delays sometimes can end up being two or three years. One of the questions I get, and we will probably talk about this today is how you eat when you are waiting for two or three years for Social Security to make it�s decision. I reference several of my websites; GAO Studies says that the amount of time that Social Security will actually work on a file is about seven days and close to three years. So the rest of that time the files are just sitting around and the people are just waiting and not getting much done.

Brian Therrien: Hmmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: So I�d say those are the two biggest problems. Getting good medical records and the big delays.

Brian Therrien: So the medical records, is it that they�re not properly kept or, tell me more about that.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Okay, it�s not so much that the records are not properly kept, its that if someone doesn�t have the money to go to a doctor on an ongoing basis.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Then there is no way for that medical record to be completed that otherwise would be. So again, realize we are talking about two to three years sometimes as a term for a case to be processed and if the last medical records filed are dated a year and a half ago. I got in front of the judge and he�s going to want to know what is going on now and my answer I, you honour, I don�t have any updated medical records, my client can�t afford to go to the doctor. Well Social Security will send people to these consultative evaluations, but a lot of times those are not real helpful and they sometimes don�t really help the claimant at all. A lot of the doctors of these industrial clinics that are looking for reasons not to help people. I mean, sure viewed by Workers Comp. the company and so forth. The hardest part of getting assistance are thorough medical records. Social Security is real big on having a consistent medical record from treating physician that basically supports our theories and case. It�s one of the things I do and I would tell anybody doing their own case or working with an attorney, you have to have what I would call a work experience disability for your case. You�ve got to be able to explain to the judge why this person is disabled, the theory of the case. If you don�t know your own theory, you can�t really expect a judge to have a theory either. So I think that having those solid medical records is really important to developing the theory on the case.

Brian Therrien: Jonathan. When you say consistent medical records, consistent treatment. Is that every month? Every week?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Good question. You know, I think l it can be every six months. It can be every four months. It can be every nine months. It has to be some sort of a consistent, I think it needs to be more then yearly. But again, you take what you get. Sometimes if somebody can only afford to go to the doctor once a year, then they go once a year. But certainly, I encourage people to go to free clinics if they need to. Public hospitals, if they�ve got them there. I guess part of it is the judges feel like if someone is not getting medical treatment, they are not going to the doctor, then it must not be that serious. If you were really really hurting you would go to an Emergency Room or something like that.

Brian Therrien: Very good.

Jonathan Ginsberg: So going with some frequency, even to the point that I�ll tell people, that you may have to go to friends and relatives and try to put together the money scrape the money together so that you can go to the doctor, because it is that important.

Brian Therrien: So that clearly explains it. That�s a great point and good advice for people that if they are gonna go and seek Social Security Disability; they need to be prepared to have a consistent medical record. And then the hardship, we�ll talk more about that later. Okay good, so let�s go forward a little bit. At some point in time through all of this in the last few years you sat down and did a great service to people and put all of this information into a �How-to-kit� and you call that the Disability Answer Guide, correct?

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s correct.

Brian Therrien: Give us just a sneak preview of that. I don�t want you to spill the beans, but give us an idea of why you did it? What is does? Yeah, we�d like to hear that.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Right and how it works. Well, basically, you know, the Disability Answer Guide came about because of client complaints. The people that I�ve talked to, kind of on a day to day basis about the complexity and confusion of the official Social Security Disability Form. If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, you know a lot of people who are applying for disabilities they are hurting, their back hurts and they may have some level of depression, they don�t feel well. They now, all of a sudden, have the task of essentially going back to school and filling out and I think I counted over a hundred pages of form. And of course the governments forms, Social Security Forms are typical government forms. They�re confusing. They don�t have any instructions with them. They are really asking in language that is sometimes designed to help the person reading the form, meaning the adjudicator, as opposed to the claimant,. I think also, just from my observation over the years. These forms are kind of a hodge podge, that they�ve been developed over time and what they�ll do is they�ll keep adding to the form but they wont really re-do it. So sometimes you�ll have the same question asked three and four times and for someone that is not a lawyer, someone that is not familiar with the lingo and the terms of art. We will talk about some of the terms of art as well, if you are not familiar with that stuff, these forms are just an insurmountable burden. I�ve had many people, I clearly can recall people telling me that they filed the application, got it denial, but never filled out the appeal form, because they didn�t know how. And it was just too confusing. They let the 60 day deadline go by and they had to start all over again. And so sometimes I�ll get these cases where someone has applied two or three times and never appealed it because they didn�t know how. I really put the credit on my clients, because they are the ones that told me about this and I just started thinking about it one day and said, you know, if I were in their shoes; what would I want? And so I put it together based on that thought process.

Brian Therrien: Interesting. So, what I�m hearing is the forms that are available out there, which we�ll talk about later are to apply for Social Security Disability are really written for a lawyer or somebody in the Social Security office to fill out.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yeah, I guess, here is the way I see it. At the initial level, when somebody applies for disability, the case is taken in and it goes to something called the State Agency, which is actually a division of the State where you live. And the personnel there are hard working people, but they are essentially hourly employees, that are looking for very specific things. So they made the form so that these people can look at the same place on every form for certain words and certain evidence, so that they can process it through. Well, what works for them, doesn�t necessarily work for the claimant. So again, a lot of the short hand on these forms in the terms of art, that you wouldn�t know were terms of art, because they just look like regular language, it means something completely different to the adjudicator then it will mean to you and me, if you didn�t know any better. So that�s really he issue, the forms are designed for processing, by the processor, but they�re not necessarily designed, at least in my opinion, for the person filling it out. There is really not a lot of even use, not even instruction. It�s gotten even worse more recently because they are moving toward electronic forms, where there�s no way to see what the next question is going to be.

Brian Therrien: Ohhh.

Jonathan Ginsberg: At least with the paper forms, you can look at the form, maybe study it and think about it and do a trial run. Electronically, you are actually online trying to do it and there�s no practice form. It�s very, very confusing. It�s really intimidating, is the best word I can use to describe it.

Brian Therrien: So help me understand some of the lingo that you�re sharing with us here. The claimant; this is the person that is seeking disability?

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s correct.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: The person that is seeking to get approved for disability is called a claimant.

Brian Therrien: Okay. And then what is the other word you used there. Adjudicator? Something?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Adjudicator is the person that is making a decision. Adjudication means to make a decision. So an adjudicator is the Social Security personnel, or in fact, State Agency person, that is at an office in, typically two or three of them in a state. What they are looking for is specific language on the forms. Again, they are not really trained or authorized to use a lot of judgement. What they�re doing, what they�re doing is just trying to find certain words, that�s pretty much it. The adjudicators, again, they work hard. Just to give you an idea, I went one time on a tour. Sometimes Social Security will offer attorneys an opportunity to go meet some of these adjudicators because we don�t really ever see them or talk to them too much. I went into this building and it was like three or four stories and the intake room was literally piled from floor to ceiling with files. And the adjudicators that I talked to told me that they were responsible for processing these files on a pretty regular basis and they had to get them out of their office fairly quick. So again, this is not looked at the way, the judge might look at it, how it is looked at in the real careful manner. They just go through them, they have got to be so overwhelmed with numbers. The poor Social Security personnel are being, taking and cutting the numbers of personnel and are so understaffed that it�s a tough job, a real tough job. And that�s really what the whole point of the guide is, is to give them what they want in the language that they need to think, or that they want.

Brian Therrien: Yes, so you�ve really put a guide together, gone through and put directions on the process just like you�re sitting there next to somebody in your office.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Exactly, what I did was I took all the forms and I filled them out as if I was the claimant. I filled them out using the language that I know that Social Security adjudicators and personnel will respond to and occasionally I would put certain parts of it in the guide, I�ll say, you�ll want to use this exact phrase. This is something that speaks to them.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Really talk to them in their language, is what we are trying to do.

Brian Therrien: Very good. Okay. Now I have lots and lots of questions that have been asked of us.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Okay.

Brian Therrien: In respect to time, I really would be anxious to go through and get your opinion on some of the challenging issues that are troubling people as they go through this application process.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Okay.

Brian Therrien: One of the first ones is how does one go about finding if they qualify for Social Security Disability benefits?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, there are a couple ways to answer that question. Let me start with the what I call my, Do I qualify? Let me draw a distinction first between SSI, Supplemental Security Income and SSDI, which is disability.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Because that is the initial question even before you qualify. They may qualify for one, for both or for neither. SSDI, is a system where people have paid into the system with taxes and essentially the rule is they must have worked five out of the last ten years. They do it by quarters of credits. For example, and the way they do it now is. If you earned a certain amount of money you are said to have enough credits for the year. So projecting in 2006, if you have earned $970 per quarter or a total of $3,880 for the year then you are insured, so once you hit that approximately $3,880 or $3,900, and you add it up, you�ll receive four quarters of credit. So in the last ten years, have you had approximately that much money earned, in half that time. If you had you are considered insured and entitled to SSDI. If you have not worked in twenty years, but before that you worked for 20 straight years, you�re out of luck. That doesn�t count, it only works for the last ten years. And the ten years actually adjusts down a little bit, say if you were 25 or 26, you might have to show the same as if you were 70. It�s three years out of six, or four years out of eight. But in general for most people it is going to be five out of eleven, and it�s got to be recent work. SSI is for people who have not qualified for Title II Disability, but haven�t worked enough but they still meet the definition of disability. You can qualify for both, but you are only going to get paid for the higher of the two. The additional answer to your question is, do I qualify for Title II SSDI, because I�ve worked enough to build it up in the system or am I a SSI only person? Based on that we just kind of move forward and I have to say this about SSI. We can talk more about it if you like. SSI is potentially the welfare program that is available to low income people that don�t have the resources over, I think it�s $2000 or has a house income that is relatively small amount, they do not qualify for SSI. So the fiscal impression that I get is that, like there is a woman that might write me or call me and say that I have worked for twenty years as a homemaker, I am disabled and my husband works. She would not qualify for SSI because of her husbands income would be too much and would disqualify her. So, the initial question is am I SSI ? Am I SSDI? Obviously, it easier to the odds are so much better for someone that is working throughout and then not working. That�s the initial qualification question.

Brian Therrien: That was $3800 a year for, okay, so a snapshot of the last ten years and looking at�

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yeah, in 2006, again we are looking at 2005 of $3860 and 2004 was $3600. They adjust it every year. So, around three and four thousand dollars a year income in that range in the last five or six years, you are probably okay. One of the forms on this particular guide, that people that can get on the net, it�s a form that I offer on the website, is the Form 7004. They fill out the 7004, they will get back a statement from Social Security that tells them if they are insured or not.

Brian Therrien: Oh.

Jonathan Ginsberg: So they can do that. It�s free. It doesn�t cost a thing for them to do. Again, it�s one fo the links at the bottom of the page on the website and you can get that form. One of the things I do, whenever I take a case, I request that 7004 statement and have it sent to me so that I can see if my client is in fact insured.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Because the last thing that you want to do is show up for a hearing after waiting two or three years to find out that the fact that they are not insured for disability and they don�t qualify for SSI and you�re out of luck.

Brian Therrien: It almost sounds like Step 1.

Jonathan Ginsberg: It is. It really is. You have got to know it. In fact, I tell people when they apply to make sure that they apply for both. I tell them when they are applying, whether they apply through the 800# or in person, to make sure that you tell them I want to apply for both Title II disability and for Title VI through SSI. So that you have that on the record and if you don�t qualify for one, the have taken the application for the other.

Brian Therrien: That�s great information, the next part of it.

Jonathan Ginsberg: The next part of it is the definition of disability. That�s really then the next step, is to see whether you meet the definition, ultimately though either a Judge or an Adjudicator makes that decision.

Brian Therrien: Yeah, but you should have an idea of which select conditions count. Do all conditions count? Diabetes, heart conditions, Fibro, obesity etc.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Okay. First of all the definition by Social Security standards is, and I�ll read it to you: is it medically determinable condition or conditions that prevents the claimant from performing financially gainful activity that has lasted or is expected to last twelve months, twelve consecutive months or result in death. So, the definition is looked at a long term. It�s not a short term, not a temporary disability, but something that is long term that will be noticed particularly on a work capacity. So to answer your question, it is any condition or conditions or sort of medical problems, diabetes, heart problems, fibro myalgia or kidney issues, liver problems. Any type of medical problem at all, but it has to be long lasting. It has to be lasting at least a year and it has to prevent the claimant from participating in work or work like activities.

Brian Therrien: So, if somebodies in the workplace and they have a career and they�re making a decent salary, so let�s use this example. Somebodies earning fifty thousand dollars a year and something happens and they are not able to do that job anymore. Let�s say that that job relies on them to do a physical participation in their job, lifting or pushing or something of that sort. So then they become, something happens to them and they are not able to do that physically, so then, how does that work, because they are not able to do that job, but maybe there is something else that they can retool and get a different set of skills and go out and do.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Absolutely, that is a very, very important point and I get this question a lot. Social Security is really about performing in any kind of job. So someone might be a neurosurgeon, for example and might develop a carpel tunnel in his or her hand.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: She couldn�t do that type of work no more, but she could be a ticket taker at a movie theatre.

Brian Therrien: Ahh.

Jonathan Ginsberg: As long as she can perform some sort of a job and actually accomplish, you are not disabled. Now there are exceptions to this rule, for people a little bit older. Once they enter their fifties or fifty-five, then the rules apply to some cases, but generally the question is could you perform any kind of simple unskilled sit down type of job. In fact, the focus again, being on vocation for the past years, going to the hearings, the judges will almost always have someone from the vocational activist there to talk about this persons ability to perform, even the most simple unskilled type of job. If there are certain jobs that the attorneys kind of joke about, because they always come up every year. A surveillance or a monitor, or a hand packer, a document sorter or textile inspector, things like that. These are simple unskilled sit down type of jobs that someone with a moderate level of pain has the sit down option and not have a high production quotient, but it still allows them to earn some sort of a living in a competitive workplace setting and that�s really what you have to look at. Not that you can go back to your past work, it�s can you do anything at all?

Brian Therrien: Okay. Let�s move on to a slight variation of the above. We�ve been asked by members several times; how bad does my condition have to be? They�ve gone through, let�s back up, they�ve gone through and found out that they can apply for SSDI, they are covered with it. 704 statement, right? They are in the process and it�s just. It�s taking a long time and their condition is bad, one of the people wrote in and said, do I have to be just about dead to get it? So, can you address that?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yeah, I have actually had a couple clients die in the process so sometimes�

Brian Therrien: It�s unbelievable, yeah.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I remember one case, probably, oh, eight or nine years ago, one of my clients rolled her on a gurney, she couldn�t move and they actually rolled her into the hearing room and strapped her in. She was lying down for the entire hearing.

Brian Therrien: Oh man.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Sometimes it seems that way and again, part of the reasons is that in those cases, they clearly ought to be an approved early; you�ve got to know how to apply to Social Security to tell them why it should be approved. It can get that way sometimes, again, part of the reason why people get denied to be honest is because they don�t know how to, again how to apply for benefits. There are two basic ways to prove disability. It kind of gets back to that theory of the case idea. One is; does the person meet what is called a medical listing. What medical listings are, Social Security has published in something that they call The Code Of Regulations, what they call a list of impairments that, basically divides the body into fourteen different systems and each system is, one is the muscular skeletal, one is respatory, one is digestive, cardio vascular, etc. one for internal health, one for cancer. Basically what these listings do is describe a medical condition in great detail and they talk about some functional limitations that arise from it. The idea being that if your diagnosed with something so severe, for example, your heart pumping capacity, is so severe under subjective tests and it results in certain limitations in your ability to walk or stay awake or whatever it may be. Then you are automatically stated disabled.

Brian Therrien: Hmmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: So that is one thing that is ideal and ideally in the system is you need a listing for the adjudicator to process and approve that. So that�s what they�re looking for. That�s why people get denied because they are not telling the adjudicator the words they are looking for. To meet the type of listing, and to look at the listing and use the terms in that listing to describe their condition.

Brian Therrien: Goes to filling out the forms correct.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Absolutely, it goes back to filling out the forms. The second way to win a case, if you don�t meet a listing, a lot of times people do not meet a listing, because A, they are very difficult to meet and B; lot of those have combination problems. They have a series of depression issues along with a bad back problem and neither one of them meet a listing, but the combination, they are in pretty bad shape. That argument is called a functional capacity argument, or the legal term for it is residual dysfunctional capacity. What that means is that you want to show Social Security that your capacity for work is so reduce by your condition or a combination of conditions that you would not be able to sustain competitive employment at any work level, any type of level in any type of competitive work environment. So again, it�s almost solely about work capacity. I have even had cases where people have medical conditions that are not clearly defined on the list. I have had cases sometimes, the prospect of going in front of a very difficult judge or my client had swelling of the leg. Nobody knew why, they couldn�t determine why he had swelling of the leg, but the end result was he couldn�t walk, without regular paid. It was documented that he had the swelling and the judge felt like well, he cannot function, his concentration level is impaired, his capacity to work, having to work and lift and carry for a certain amount of time. He couldn�t sit for more then a certain period of time and that combination of her conditions and her functional capacity, what they call less then sedentary, does not lend to that kid of job. So, part one is you need a listing, theory two is do you have the functional capacity that is less then a simple sit down kind of job.

Brian Therrien: Okay. Great. Next one, let me see how I can best, well, I will just ask it as it is. Going through the approval process, we had some people write in and say listen, last Saturday night I had six cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon and the officer pulled me over and I�m going to get a D.W.I. Is that going to affect my chances of getting disability?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, there are two answers to that question. Number one is that if you are incarcerated you can�t get. They don�t pay. So the days when an incarcerated felon could get monthly checks from Social Security, those days are over. So, if you�re on benefits and you�re receiving your check and you get put in jail for some reason, you don�t get paid for that time.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Now, I�ve had situations where I literally tried cases in lockup, which is where somebody can apply for benefits that are temporarily in lockup, but it wasn�t going to be a long term thing and the judge actually went to the jail, went to the prison with me and we tried the case there.

Brian Therrien: Hmmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I was tell you those cases are not the best cases, it�s an uphill battle, but there is some situations where somebody has had something happen. An example would be, if they got locked up for child support problems. They aren�t going to be able to get out, but it had nothing to do with their condition or any other kind of moral purposes. They didn�t pay the child support because they didn�t have the money and that would affect them getting approved, although while they are in lockup they are not allowed to receive benefits. Now, the second part of your question is that, I figure while we are on the subject, I should mention. One of the things about Social Security is if they find that substance abuse, whether it is alcohol or drugs, any type of substance abuse, is what they call a material contributing factor to disability, then you are not eligible for disability. If you are an alcoholic, but your condition would improve or stabilized if you stopped drinking, you don�t get disability.

Brian Therrien: Oh, interesting point.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Now, if you, although I have won cases for alcoholics that have been drinking for so long that their liver has been damaged to the point where they have organ damage and their liver function, the tests are so that they might need a listing. I have won cases like that, but I have had a couple situations where people are drug abusers and because there are using cocaine or whatever and they have mental issues, it�s a different, the judges will often separate that as underlying depression. For example, that might be case that can be won, but those are very difficult cases. Substance abuse or drug abuse, those are real red flags that go up with that.

Brian Therrien: Okay, great. Thanks for sharing that. Key is, be careful.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yes, be careful. The key is that you�ve got to be very careful when going through medical records, doctors are very sensitive about people, who especially if they are on some pain medication, that are abusing that privilege. In other words, they are getting their prescription from the doctor, that doctors not going to find out that they are going to another doctor and getting the same prescription from the other doctor.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Once a term like drug abuser or malingering, gets into the medical records, because it will percolate down to that medical record, it becomes a real problem. Judges don�t like to pay people who they think are potentially playing games.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm. Good to know.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Which makes sense, if you think about it.

Brian Therrien: Yeah, I can see where it would.

Jonathan Ginsberg: On the other hand there are people sometimes who are legitimately under such severe pain that they might either self medicate or they may take additional pain killers because of such intense pain. The doctors give them documented Percocet.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I guess the message I would say is that you are having a pain issue and the doctor does not understand what you are going through, you may want to look into getting another doctor. And you follow it through, you just don�t let it appear in the record.

Brian Therrien: Rather then self-medicating.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Exactly, every time you start doing stuff like that, self medicate, you know, that�s not okay, that�s a problem.

Brian Therrien: Yeah.

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s a problem.

Brian Therrien: Next topic. Money and lack there of and having money and going through the approval process. More specifically, can somebody go through the approval process and be awarded if they�re self employed, have an interest in a business, own investments, I guess, what income asset issues affect, if any, the approval process?

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s a good question and it does pop up. As a rule if there is any kind of asset that is truly capital, that would not impact their ability to get Title II disability. It would affect SSI, but not Title II. If someone had a rental property for example, they were earning of $500/month from that, it might show up on their earnings record and the might be prepared to explain that, but it�s not work activity. Again the definition performing substantial gainful activity. If they are not doing anything, then it should not be a problem. Now, I will tell you that Social Security see�s earnings above eight or nine hundred dollars. The presumption is that this is work income and that you are earning something. So if a claimant has had a passive income that they are not actually doing anything, they need to be prepared to show evidence of what that is.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s one point. As far as part-time work, basically Social Security has a concept again, called Financial Gainful Activity. For 2006, the financial amount was $860. So if you are earning less a year then $860, then you have not sustained a financial worth. If you are over $860, then they think you are. So, as a rule, if you are working part-time, you want to watch that and make sure that your earnings do not exceed that level, because if you get to a $1000/month, that would even be worse. I tell you as a matter of strategy, I find that people that work part-time. Those cases are much, much more difficult, because the judges tend to feel that if someone can work part-time, they can probably work full time on a little bit lighter job. So, generally as strategy matter, I don�t ever say to somebody don�t work. I just tell them if they work part-time, that kind of goes against them into the negative column as far as disability,

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: So the legal answer is they can work. They can try to work. They can do part-time work and earn a small amount of money, but the practical matter is a way for them to lose their SSDI.

Brian Therrien: Sounds crazy.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, although the other thing. The flip side of that is that trials for unsuccessful work attempts, what they can UWA, Unsuccessful Work Attempts can actually be very compelling evidence, because I can use that to show the judge, look my client has been trying to work but they cant do it and unsuccessful work attempts generally are something that last�s less then three months.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I�ve got a reference for a personal work for less then three months, for only six weeks and missed three or for times during this time they were awaiting the hearing. That�s actually good evidence, because it shows that they have the right attitude and that they are trying, but they can�t do it. I�ve got somebody that works one job for nine months, part-time and that�s problematic.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: If he worked four jobs for a month and a half it would be fine.

Brian Therrien: So what I see here is I look at this and everybody that participates in our work force out there, works at different levels. There�s different capacities, different jobs and different incomes and they pay into the system in different amounts. But everybody that is awarded is paid the exact same amount, is that correct?

Jonathan Ginsberg: No. No, again, SSDI, Social Security Disability, the amount of your monthly benefit is a reflection of what you have paid in. It�s the very, very complicated calculation based on what they call the PIA or Primary Insurance Amount, and I mean, I can read it to you. But I won�t advise you or anybody else what it means. It�s a confusing formula. Essentially what it looks at is what you would get in retirement if there�s adjustments onto that.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Essentially what it means is you paid into the system. The more that you paid into the system the higher your benefits turn out to be. Typically I see people getting $1000 - $1800 a month SSDI. SSI by contrast, is the same. That is a statutory amount and the maximum for example for 2006 is $603, that�s six, zero, three for a married couple would be $904, so basically SSI is set by statute, subsidiary, opt in and the opt in might be the cash equivalent to a housing bill or for other things like that. SSI claimants, the most they are getting is $600/month less some sort of a cash equivalent or depending on what kind of help they are getting.

Brian Therrien: Okay, but the earnings amount is consistent, regardless of if you�re SSDI check is $1000 or $1800, you still can only earn that�

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s correct.

Brian Therrien: Okay. Alright, that�s great. Thank you for clarifying that.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yes, the amount of return is limted.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: And it is adjusted every year to take in account inflation.

Brian Therrien: So now that we�re talking about the work subject. Let�s say that somebody wants to go out and they say, you know what, I want to give a go at this and try to go back to work. They go back to work and it just isn�t working out. Either they are not able to work or their condition gets worse and they have to, you know, they�ve got to go back. Can they get their benefits back if they had lost them in that attempt?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yes, well first of all there�s something important to know about it�s called a filed work period. Social Security recognizes and they encourage people on how to go back to work. So basically what the trial work period says, in the first nine months after the income is stable that you can go back to work and get a job and I think it�s about $620 a month before it loses the Trial Work status. Even if you are earning over that. You are still going to get your benefits, and you get to keep what you earned from the job. So if you try to work for nine months, it�s not going to effect your benefits at all. Now, after the nine months, and it�s nine months every five years, in a five year period of time. So it would be nine months, ten years from now you could apply again, and you would have another nine months to play with. After that, basically, they would cut you off. And if they cut you off, and you become disabled again, you will have to go through the whole process all over again.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I believe, again, I�ll be honest with you. I don�t normally get involved with the post disability issues cases. My understanding is you have to apply all over again. It may be the process; I don�t want to confuse anybody about that. Since I am not familiar with it, I mean, that�s a good question for my blog, I�ll put it on there.

Brian Therrien: All right, great. This might be more of a tax expert question but the $806 or $860.

Jonathan Ginsberg: It�s $860

Brian Therrien: It�s $860. The $860 that you can earn, if somebody is, let�s say there are earning that money as being self employed.

Jonathan Ginsberg: All right.

Brian Therrien: Is it looked at what they net after taxes and expenses, or is it the same as, how is that viewed, do you know?

Jonathan Ginsberg: I think, I believe it is the gross income.

Brian Therrien: The gross income. Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: There are a lot of tax income questions I get on my benefits package and the answer of that question is depends on what the household income is. Some benefits are not taxable at all, others are subject to taxes. That�s a better question for a tax attorney.

Brian Therrien: Okay. All right. That�s god to know, we�ll find one and get the answer for that. Okay, so we�ve covered some good stuff here. What happens when somebody reaches retirement age, do they still get their disability benefits?

Jonathan Ginsberg: What will happen is this, the Social Security Administration will convert their, at retirement age, they will convert their disability retirement and typically retirement is going to be a higher benefit amount, again based on the PIA amount. So they will get the higher income amount.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I believe that happens. It actually is a really good question. I think that it happens at, if I am not mistaken. I think it happens at 65 or at retirement age. Although I�ve read someplace that it may happen earlier in some states. That would be a good question. But I don�t have the research on the blog.

Brian Therrien: On your blog. Okay. Great. Great. Getting started somebody comes through and you�ve given some great advice Jonathan, on what the first steps are and one of the big questions is how long does it take?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Oh. How long does it take�.

Brian Therrien: It�s a million dollar question.

Jonathan Ginsberg: A million dollar question. Let me give you some general guidelines and that is when you apply for benefits, the initial application, from my own observations could take up to five to seven months. Where you have the adjudicator takes the file and it is taken by Social Security and they package it up and they send it over to the state agency office and the adjudicator begins to develop a case, requesting copies of medical records as they come back in, the files themselves can either be looked then, it usually takes five to seven months. You then have sixty days, to file an Appeal for Consideration. The Appeal for Consideration is the first step of the appeal and they have actually tried to phase that out because the process doesn�t open the gates. But right now the Appeal for Consideration, is going to take another 60-90 days maybe a little bit longer. They will go ahead and issue you a denial or approval. Reconsideration is kind of a waste of time for very serious cases. A hearing for reconsideration could be another six to nine months between the denial and the reconsideration and then within 69 days you file for a hearing. From the time that you file for a hearing and you actually get a hearing ranges from a year to two years. So the whole process from start to finish and you get a hearing and get a completion. It is running around two and a half years nationwide.

Brian Therrien: Two and a half years?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Unfortunately, two and a half years.

Brian Therrien: Okay. I�ve got lots of questions here.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Okay.

Brian Therrien: Let�s go back through the five to seven months time frame and in that time frame; you had mentioned, well, I�ll ask this question first. If somebody is really defined as being disabled and I forget the exact terminology that you used, but if it�s spotted within that five to seven month period, is there is a chance that they would be awarded benefits.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Absolutely and that�s really the prime time where a claimant ought to emphasize that they need a listing.

Brian Therrien: A listing?

Jonathan Ginsberg: A listing, where they have been approved. It�s the only reality way that they are going to get approved. And 90% of the time it will be a listing.

Brian Therrien: Okay. But if they don�t have a listing, their chances in the first five to seven months are�.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well again, it depends and one of the things that I have tried to do with my book is, I give them some of the forms, specifically the functional capacity forms that they can get the doctor to fill out that might, you know, allow the disability adjudicators to make a decision. But again, realize that there are two theories of winning a case, one is using a listing, number two is your functional capacity is less then sedentary. You have limited functional capacity for work. Meeting a listing is something that the adjudicators are looking for. However, they are also trained to look for functional capacity evaluation. Those forms are considered by Social Security. What I�ve done is I�ve modified it to the point where it really addressing the specifications that the adjudicator is looking for. So I�ve had a number of good set of feedback from people who have win functional capacity at that early stage because they are using my forms.

Brian Therrien: Back to the forms.

Jonathan Ginsberg: My form, right. My form is not one of the official forms, it is one that I use in my practice, but again, I know that it works because of the judges, or the adjudicators will back it up.

Brian Therrien: So. I am hearing a few things here, within the first five to seven months or the first submission, if you can outline a listing or functional capacity and fill the forms in right, you maximize your chances. Is that right?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Correct, you want to have your doctor to help you fill the form out.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: So really what I do is, you know, in the book, what I do is I give an example of the forms filled out in a way that will win the case. So, it�s almost like a �dummy form� because it�s already filled out and I have a blank one too. So you take your doctor a sample of this form already filled out. This is what it would take if I am going to take it to the doctor and filled it out not like this, and I don�t know who the physician is, but if the doctor truly wants to help you and feels you are disabled. This is the tool that you need to help Social Security to determine your case.

Brian Therrien: Okay Jonathan, if you were to take a look at all the cases that you or the cases that you�ve represented. Can you give us an idea off the top of your head of what percentage are able to either have a listing or prove function capacity and awarded in this first round.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well again, I don�t really see if they are award initially because I don�t normally get involved until they have been denied.

Brian Therrien: Oh. Ok.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Again, that gets back to why I wrote the book is because you don�t need a lawyer at the initial onset. There�s really no reason for having an attorney as a claimant, because there is not really anything we can rally do And again, the whole point of the book si this is how you feel the forms out initially, by the claimant without an attorney involved anyway. So the only thing that I can do at this initial stage is I can help build the record by submitting the initial medical records and making sure that the functional capacity records are in the file, but again, that is something hat the claimant can do on his own and save himself a lot of money.

Brian Therrien: We�re going to talk more about that.

Jonathan Ginsberg: All right.

Brian Therrien: That really helps clear it up. So, as a general rule if it�s not awarded as a listing there a functional capacity you�re saying two and a half years as an average.

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s right.

Brian Therrien: Wow, and during that time, it�s not beneficial for people to work for the reason that you outlined, so this really, boy this is challenge.

Jonathan Ginsberg: It is and the questions that I get is how do I eat? What am I supposed to do in the meantime and if they have a spouse? I have seen people, you know, literally three or four time a week, that have had to file bankruptcy, that are literally living hand to mouth because they have one spouse another that can work and the other cant.. The ones that have no spouse they are the ones that go homeless. It�s bad.

Brian Therrien: Do you have any tips for them? Any suggestion?

Jonathan Ginsberg: You know, I wish I did. This is a major problem, I tell people at the onset, this is going to be a long road and you need to really minimize your expenses and if you need to file bankruptcy to get rid of stuff, you gotta do that. You can, but you are financially going to plummet, people ask me and the only thing that you can really do is not work all the time. You can rewrite your congressman and Senator and say that I have a dire need and that is the term you use, dire need for a decision because I am about to lose my house. I am about to be homeless and some cases the Senators and Social Security liaisons will be able to do a little bit, but that is becoming less effective as more people find out about it.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: But there is really not much you can do, in fact this whole redesign process, is that Social Security is trying to implement is designed to eliminate the listing phase to speed up the process, but again, I don�t see how it is going to work without more personnel and they are cutting the personnel. So, it�s really unclear to me as to what is going to happen with that. But, in any case, there is really no answer to it, other then you have got to wait and you have to try to find a way to provide that person with some medical services on record and you gotta work and that may be hurting your case. It�s almost like you if you are so disabled that you can�t work even though you can. It�s sad.

Brian Therrien: Hmmm. Well�

Jonathan Ginsberg: I do want to make one more comment. When I say two and a half years, that�s not every place in the country. That�s what is going on in Atlanta.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: But it�s not necessarily going on everyplace else. But it can be that long, in fact what they are dong here in Atlanta is they are taking a lot of these cases and they are hearing them and they are having judges in Virginia, West Virginia, Philadelphia actually hear the cases over telecom, where you just have a big TV in the office. I had one of these a couple days ago, where the judge was in Virginia and my client was here and the witness was in Virginia and they had a case heard over video conferencing. That�s something they do to try to speed things up.

Brian Therrien: Technology, it�s getting in the game.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yeah, in fact the other thing that they are doing is they are trying to move away from physical paper files to electronic files.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Everything is going to be done on a CD and it�s going to be done that way. Which I welcome because I kind of like the high tech stuff, but again the transition is always problematic, there are always glitches, which is going to be interesting.

Brian Therrien: not everybody is computer friendly.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Nope, not everybody s and I think�.

Brian Therrien: You can see that being a big problem.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, as I said, they moved the initial application for Social Security everything. They try to encourage you to do that online. Just for kicks I went online and had a client that had not applied yet, he tried to apply online and of course, it just hung up right in the middle of it. He got about 45 minutes into it and it just crashed. Social Security�s system was crashed so we had essentially lost 45 pages of work.

Brian Therrien: Hmmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I am not saying that the system doesn�t work; it may have been an unusual situation.

Brian Therrien: Yep, yep. So you�ve given a real clear idea of what it takes to be awarded and the time frame and really the situation. And it�s not pretty. But, let�s concentrate on what we can control here. And you�ve done a great thing by putting together this guide So, what I�m hearing here is you want to get the forms, get them filled out right and use the correct terminology. Can you give us a few more tips on, you know, what it is they are looking for and maybe a few things that people would find in the guide that help to address this, so that we can get a better idea?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Yeah, I�ll give you one thing in particular. I tell this to people at my office, and in the guide. When you are filling out an application for benefits, you almost always want to include an alligation of depression. A, because inmost cases it�s kinda hard working throughout your whole life and they no longer can work, there is going ti be an element of depression. It�s very hard to go from being self supporting and supporting your family to being dependant on other people and there is almost always some sort of element of that in a person�s life. More important for Social Security what that does is triggers a psychological evaluation at no cost to you. And I have found many cases where the psychological evaluation generates some limitations, maybe not enough to win a case, but it generates some limitations, again, that might limit the person to simple job instructions, eliminate complex job instructions. It might even identify memory complications. It might identify concentration problems. It almost always helps to some degree. So I tell people when they are filling it out, actually you should get the language to some alleged alligations or some element of depression. That�s one thing that the guide doesn�t say.

Brian Therrien: And that�s okay to do?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well again, now obviously f the person clearly says there�s no element at all. I am not depressed at all, because you don�t want to mislead people, but I am telling you from experience, again, I see a lot of people that are, let�s say that a man coming in is forty-eight years old, this is two years old, he has been working his whole life and now because of a bad back he cant support his family. He can�t work. Well, it would be unusual for that person to not have some element of depression.

Brian Therrien: Right.

Jonathan Ginsberg: This doesn�t mean he cries all the time, or is suicidal; it just means that he has a negative outlook on his future. I think that that sometimes people don�t realize they�ve got it. The spouse can tell, yes there is something that is going on here that has changed. He is not so friendly anymore. He is withdrawn. I think a lot of people deny the existence of it. I just wanted to throw that out there.

Brian Therrien: That�s what I�m thinking. Somebody that�s, you know, worked and put myself as best I can in that position, I�m not too psyched about admitting that I am depressed.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, if you think about it, just the whole concept of calling yourself disabled, that word applying to yourself is very, very hard.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: I had a client a couple days ago he has his hearing in a couple days and he was from East Virginia and this guy was a welder. He�s been a welder for his whole adult life. He was in his mid forties late forties. He�s been a welder for twenty years, a good one. And now he can�t do that. He has bad back problems, knee problems. Well, he is depressed and even though he has to put a good face on and I want to go back to work, his doctors got him on Prozac and he�s depressed. That�s something that he recognizes, that there is an element of that there and some just don�t realize. Some people take a medication for depression and don�t even realize what it�s for.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: The doctors give it, but I think it�s something to consider strongly. I recommend putting it in there, because if it turns up that you�re not depressed. The psychological evaluation may come back and says that you�re not depressed.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: But more often then not when people go for these psychological evaluations it comes back some of value.

Brian Therrien: Yeah.

Jonathan Ginsberg: One thing that I would put in there. The second thing, this is more of a general point, but when filling out the forms, remember that this is about work capacity. So, when you talk about things, let me give you a specific example. Somebody talks about that they�ve got a problem with their back. That they have chronic problems with their back, well, lifting has obviously been and issue. In conversation, I might say to him, I can�t lift very much because my back hurts. Well, not very much doesn�t really say anything, it�s a pretty general term. If however, he says I cant lift more then ten pounds, or I cant carry more then seven or eight pounds. That�s more specific and that can really be applied to a job description. So, I try to tell people in the guide, be very specific when you are talking about things you can measure, like lifting or walking, sitting the time. Just be very, very specific. I realize that they can have good days and bad days but, think about an average day and could you lift a gallon of milk on a repeated basis and if you couldn�t because of a lifting restriction, you can tell.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: And that is a lot better then I can�t lift very much. Or I can�t walk very far.

Brian Therrien: Good point. Clearly paints the picture.

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s it. It hits the nil on the head. Painting a picture and again, think about it in terms of a person looking, considering a job description that has specific requirements; lifting, carrying, climbing, stooping, all kinds of things like that. Do you have a capacity to perform those tasks at those levels?

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: If you don�t, you want to state the levels that you could do it at.

Brian Therrien: Okay. Any other tips or suggestions as far as, what should be included in the information that would be helpful? I know that a lot of this is, well it�s all in the guide. But, anything else?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well again, Social Security is really numbers, so they�ll ask you how long you an do certain things. How long you can walk. A lot of people say to me, well, I don�t know how long I can walk. You have to be able to answer that. As a general rule and let me give you some guidelines. Social Security looks at work capacity in terms of categories of what they call sedentary, light, medium and heavy. And sedentary is basically where you have to be seated for most of the day. And you couldn�t really stand, not necessarily, for more then a couple of hours a day total. A light job might be one that you stand six out of eight hours. So, you have to kinda keep those, I wouldn�t worry about those things too much, just as a general rule. Make sure that your comments don�t show that you are not able to work. You want to focus on your limitations. Sitting, walking, standing, things like that. Every job has those and if you can get passed those, you eliminate a whole category of jobs that limit all light jobs, which is really the test that they use. So focus on the numbers and don�t be a hero. Don�t be overly optimistic; think about what is really real.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm. Like I can only walk ten steps and I can only lift eight pounds once and I used �

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, you can go further then that. You might say that my situation is such that I go get the mail. The mailbox is maybe twenty yards away. When I go get the mail I have to stop at the mailbox to rest before I come back. You want to be that descriptive on the forms. Like, I go to the grocery store and I have to use the riding cart or I have to rely on the wagon. I can�t carry my groceries out to the car. I carry them in the cart and when I get home I have to have somebody help me get them out. You want to be that descriptive when talking about what you can and cannot do.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Painting a picture.

Brian Therrien: Yep. Good.

Jonathan Ginsberg: But it�s a good point to stay away from terms like, not very much or I don�t think I can do that or I�m not sure. You want to be definite. You want to say these are the numbers that apply.

Brian Therrien: Excellent advice. So, if somebody does all this and they go through and they put their best foot forward and they�ve denied. Do they find out why?

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, Social Security has a, they usually use form letters and the form letters are poor to read and to read. One of them identifies the medical evidence that was used to make the decision. And a lot of times, I�d say probably half the time, there is medical information missing. So, you know, you�ve gone to the doctor or orthopaedist and he did not cooperate in pushing you and testing you or you haven�t paid enough and you�ll see that his records are not there. Remember that I told you that Social Security adjudicators are under a time pressure, time deadline. If they don�t get the records back, they don�t consider those records in making a decision. So the first thing that I look for is all the records that should�ve been included within, in fact considered. If they were not considered, then my job as the attorney of the claimant is to make sure that Social Security gets copies of those records, so that they can consider them at the next appeal process.

Brian Therrien: Basically say that, you know, you say you have missed this.

Jonathan Ginsberg: Well, you can write the adjudicator, well, actually what I probably would do is getting copies of those documents. You want to build your own file because Social Security has been known to lose files as well.

Brian Therrien: Oh boy.

Jonathan Ginsberg: You want to have copies of your own records, so then if they loose them for two and a half years, it could be four or five years. I had a case about a month and a half ago, it was five years old and I won the case, but my guy went for five years, before they lost the file. He has to have them rebuild the file. It was fortunate that we had all the record, from the time that I got the case and we built the file. You also want to make sure that all the files are in there. They will say in a form letter that your doctor said X, Y and sometimes they will say that the doctor said X, Y and Z, that is not submission. Again, what they�re saying to you is the doctors didn�t fill out the form properly.

Brian Therrien: Okay. Is there a way that somebody could find out the approval statistics for, you know, how many cases there are approved in a certain area based on what the condition was? Is that information out there?

Jonathan Ginsberg: That information to my knowledge is not. I have seen statistics about approval rates at the various levels of the adjudication process. So, nationally cases that are just initially approved, there is a certain rate. Major consideration for hearings, so on and so forth. Those statistics are available at the Social Security Website. I�m also seeing specific, and this is only one hearing office, I think it was Texas, where somebody did a study about the approval rate within five judges in that hearing office. It was interesting that they found that the rates range from 60-65%. So some judges were denying most cases, other judges were approving the majority of the cases.

Brian Therrien: Mmhmm.

Jonathan Ginsberg: But I have not seen any kinds of figure that say that a fibro myalgia case has a significant approval for those cases.

Brian Therrien: Okay.

Jonathan Ginsberg: They may disallow that case.

Brian Therrien: Yep. You know, in general we hear often that working and communicating and trying to get information from the Social Security office is just politely said, a challenge.

Jonathan Ginsberg: That�s definitely true.

Brian Therrien: Yeah, do you have any suggestions? I mean, people are getting the same answers. They�re not getting answers. A, they�re getting the run around. Their phone calls aren�t answered. The whole, the whole program.

Jonathan Ginsberg: You know, I wish I had a good answer for you for that. I think that it�s just that they are overworked and I�ve met a number of the Social Security employees and they are by in large good people and they are trying to do their job, but they�re over worked and they don�t have time to chat. I think some of them re kind of gun-shy as well, because they don�t like to be yelled at by claimants. It�s not the adjud